Help with starter adjustment

3858 Views 19 Replies 6 Participants Last post by toobroketoretire, Apr 1, 2013

'Nugz 77

Discussion Starter · Mar 25, 2013

Here's the starter I tried to install: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66268/media/rotatingmodel

It is supposed to work w/ the 350 ci, and it fits the engine, but the pinion wont engage the flywheel properly. I have no idea how to adjust this, since the "plug and play" technique I was hoping to be successful didn't work.
The directions mention adding shims to the mounting bolts for the right clearance, but 1.) it didn't come with any and 2.) that would adjust it vertically to the engine. It seems to me that the pinion doesn't extend far enough, or extends too far to engage the flywheel. Any ideas on how I adjust the pinion travel?

Thanks guys.

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toobroketoretire

· #2 · Mar 25, 2013

'Nugz 77 said:
Here's the starter I tried to install: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66268/media/rotatingmodel

It is supposed to work w/ the 350 ci, and it fits the engine, but the pinion wont engage the flywheel properly. I have no idea how to adjust this, since the "plug and play" technique I was hoping to be successful didn't work.
The directions mention adding shims to the mounting bolts for the right clearance, but 1.) it didn't come with any and 2.) that would adjust it vertically to the engine. It seems to me that the pinion doesn't extend far enough, or extends too far to engage the flywheel. Any ideas on how I adjust the pinion travel?

Thanks guys.

All of the auto parts stores carry the shim assortments (if you need one). Yes, they DO adjust the started vertically but that's just as good as adjusting them horizontally because of the starter's 45 degree location in reference to the ring gear.

There isn't any "in and out" adjustment. As long as the Bendix retracts completely out of mesh with the ring gear teeth that's all that's needed. And as far as going in too deep the face of the Bendix stops it.

To check a started for it's adjustment pry the Bendix into mesh with the ring gear teeth. Once fully meshed the gear should be able to be wiggled a little bit. Some folks use a small paperclip inserted between the teeth but any amount clearance is enough. You'll know when they need shimming as they'll make a LOT of noise.

'Nugz 77

Discussion Starter · #3 · Mar 27, 2013

Thanks for the advice. I guess I should have also mentioned that mounting the starter took a herculean effort. I've come to realize that nothing comes off or fits easily when working on these old cars, but this was the hardest time I've had yet. I don't think I could add any more shims and still get it thread. So looks like maybe I need to get longer bolts and maybe play with it from there?
Also when you are talking about aligning the pinion to the mesh gear with a paperclip or thin gage wire, I don't know how to get the pinion out without energizing it. Any suggestions? Even if I did there is a piece of sheet metal cover on the front of the transmission that prevents me from seeing the mesh gear with it on.
I guess I could take the cover off, mount the starter, adjust the alignment, remove the starter, replace the cover, and then reinstall the starter - but it seems like there must be an easier way!? Thanks.

toobroketoretire

· #4 · Mar 27, 2013

Mounting A New Starter

Most people start by simply mounting it and trying it. If it spins real noisy that indicates the pinion is binding in the ring gear teeth and the starter needs to be shimmed down away from the ring gear. To shim it:

1. Take the dust shield off the engine

2. Remove the solenoid and mount the starter

3. Pull on the iron plunger and watch the pinion enter the flywheel teeth

4. If the pinion slides into mesh TIGHT (no pinion wiggle) or won't slide in at all the starter will have to be shimmed down; away from the block

5. Start by trying the thinnest 1/32" shims then try thicker shims until the pinion will slide into mesh easily with a bit of clearance

Everything isn't always "plug and play" as you would hope as there are manufacturing tolerances and that's why the starter shims are available.

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[email protected]

· #5 · Mar 27, 2013

'Nugz 77 said:
Thanks for the advice. I guess I should have also mentioned that mounting the starter took a herculean effort. I've come to realize that nothing comes off or fits easily when working on these old cars, but this was the hardest time I've had yet. I don't think I could add any more shims and still get it thread. So looks like maybe I need to get longer bolts and maybe play with it from there?
Also when you are talking about aligning the pinion to the mesh gear with a paperclip or thin gage wire, I don't know how to get the pinion out without energizing it. Any suggestions? Even if I did there is a piece of sheet metal cover on the front of the transmission that prevents me from seeing the mesh gear with it on.
I guess I could take the cover off, mount the starter, adjust the alignment, remove the starter, replace the cover, and then reinstall the starter - but it seems like there must be an easier way!? Thanks.

and now you know why shops charge $85/hr

Hotrod

· #6 · Mar 27, 2013

If it was easy anybody could do it! :toilet:

toobroketoretire

· #7 · Mar 27, 2013

Hotrod said:
If it was easy anybody could do it! :toilet:

I don't thing anything of pulling an engine out just to give it a new paint job but for some folks just replacing a starter is a major undertaking. But back when I was a kid I also thought it was a major job to replace a starter. So I do understand his frustration as there's a LONG learning curve to twisting wrenches. I'm now going into my 50th year and still don't know anything.

[email protected]

· #8 · Mar 27, 2013

toobroketoretire said:
I don't thing anything of pulling an engine out just to give it a new paint job but for some folks just replacing a starter is a major undertaking. But back when I was a kid I also thought it was a major job to replace a starter. So I do understand his frustration as there's a LONG learning curve to twisting wrenches. I'm now going into my 50th year and still don't know anything.

no Steve, you just can t remember .. LOL!

buster

· #9 · Mar 27, 2013

yeah, and some people have the advantage of time too! Plus it takes me twice as long to do a job as for toobroke or fish!

[email protected]

· #10 · Mar 27, 2013

Buster, none of us have the free time Toobroke has ..

PalmBeachVette76

· #11 · Mar 28, 2013

[email protected] said:
Buster, none of us have the free time Toobroke has ..

can't compete with Father Time :rofl:

only listen and learn :thumbsup3:

toobroketoretire

· #12 · Mar 30, 2013

[email protected] said:
Buster, none of us have the free time Toobroke has ..

When I was younger I had money but no time but now that I'm older I have time but no money. So which do I prefer? The time as without time you fail to see the little things in life that you never had time to see before (huh?).

Because of a severe spine injury in 1987 I was forced into retirement in 1997 at only 50 years old. Since then I have learned more about things than I had learned in my first 50 years.

'Nugz 77

Discussion Starter · #13 · Mar 30, 2013

3

Some feedback w/ photos

Well, just spent all day working on this starter project again, and still no dice.

First off thanks again to Toobrok and everyone for the advice. I've attached some pictures this time that might help.

I could not get the solenoid off the starter - couldn't unmount it, the screw torque wouldn't budge even with a drill. So I can't get the pinion out to verify the alignment. Even if I could, as you can see from the picture with the starter mounted, there's no way for me to see or measure any clearance in there. You can also see how tight the starter is in its slot - I don't think I can shim it down even if I tried.
I have a video (that I don't think I can post @ 3 mb) of trying to start the car. The mesh engages momentarily and spins a few times, but then stops and there is a click-click-click (not solenoid) noise that sounds like the pinion is spinning but not grabbing anything.
I guess my question (other than help!) would that it seems like the pinion shoots out, momentarily engages, and then doesn't. So if it does engage a little, and it is overshooting (which I can't adjust by adding the vertical shims), what can I do. Or do I just have the wrong starter contrary to appearance and my questioning before I bought it. Thanks again.

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[email protected]

· #14 · Mar 30, 2013

thats a hi-torque mini starter ? it should have come with shims.. its hard to tell from the pic, is the distance from the bolthole to the nose, same as the old starter ? you say that you think its going past the flywheel? it looks short ..it could be the wrong starter ...

toobroketoretire

· #15 · Mar 31, 2013 (Edited)

'Nugz 77 said:
Well, just spent all day working on this starter project again, and still no dice.

First off thanks again to Toobrok and everyone for the advice. I've attached some pictures this time that might help.

I could not get the solenoid off the starter - couldn't unmount it, the screw torque wouldn't budge even with a drill. So I can't get the pinion out to verify the alignment. Even if I could, as you can see from the picture with the starter mounted, there's no way for me to see or measure any clearance in there. You can also see how tight the starter is in its slot - I don't think I can shim it down even if I tried.
I have a video (that I don't think I can post @ 3 mb) of trying to start the car. The mesh engages momentarily and spins a few times, but then stops and there is a click-click-click (not solenoid) noise that sounds like the pinion is spinning but not grabbing anything.
I guess my question (other than help!) would that it seems like the pinion shoots out, momentarily engages, and then doesn't. So if it does engage a little, and it is overshooting (which I can't adjust by adding the vertical shims), what can I do. Or do I just have the wrong starter contrary to appearance and my questioning before I bought it. Thanks again.

The drive pinion cannot "overshoot" as it stops when it reaches the end of the housing. So "overshooting: is impossible.

Now, does it crank the engine or not? When it does crank (if it does) does it crank normally or does it make a lot of whining noise? And why can't you put shims between the starter and the block? What is preventing them from going in? These starters are sold all the time so I can't imagine why you're having any trouble mounting it and getting it going.

The pan mounting surface is the center of the crankshaft and flywheel so as the drive pinion of your starter is located BELOW the pan level any shimming will move the pinion slightly away from the flywheel teeth (a .030" shim may just provide another .004" to .005" of tooth clearance).

The shims come in two different styles; straight bolt pattern and staggered bolt pattern. Your starter has the staggered bolt pattern so you would need the staggered bolt pattern shims.

Have you talked to Summit's customer service about this? If not try talking to them and see what they suggest.

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'Nugz 77

Discussion Starter · #16 · Mar 31, 2013

installed video

Here is the video, which should help. As you can see it engages and turns the enginge a little, but then stops. The video shows 3 attempts.

[email protected]

· #17 · Mar 31, 2013

that clicking sound is the solenoid engaging,but not turning engine , usually means low voltage or bad solenoid, but since its new, probably low voltage ..is your battery full charged and good ? check to see you have solid connections at battery, .and the main wire to starter is not damaged ..can you test battery voltage ? was it doing this with old starter?

toobroketoretire

· #18 · Mar 31, 2013

The clicking you're hearing is caused by very low voltage getting to the starter. The clicking is caused by voltage that is dropping so low the solenoid's electromagnet can't stay energized so it rapidly disengages and then reengages.

If your battery cables use those "clamp-on" hardware-store type ends they must be thoroughly cleaned of all corrosion, grease applied, then re-tightened. And make sure your battery is FULLY charged.

'Nugz 77

Discussion Starter · #19 · Apr 1, 2013

She's running!

Well I finally got it all working. No shims required, turns out the dust cover in front of the mesh gear's porthole for the starter was slightly too small which caused the pinion to be to shallow. So after a little less-than-skilled sheet-metal work (bending and hammering), and fully topping-off the battery, she started right up.
Thanks again for the all the help and advice.

toobroketoretire

· #20 · Apr 1, 2013

Low Voltage

The moment I heard the "click click click" I knew you had a low voltage problem as low voltage doesn't keep the solenoid plunger pulled.

When you go to start your engine the solenoid's electromagnet draws the plunger foreword (engaging the Bendix into the flywheel teeth) then at the end of it's stroke it "makes" the contacts (making the motor spin).

Most starters don't need any shims but every once in a while they do so that's why the shims are available.

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