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Discussion Starter #1
As you can see from my sig, I have an A&A kit with the V-3 T trim. I've been making plans to bump my rwhp up this Spring to around 600-630 whp. Currently, I'm sitting at around 510whp on the stock bottom end.

I have noticed that just about everyone who has the same setup that I have, are running 600+ whp. The guy who installed the kit is very good and he specializes in Vettes. He did tell me that he went with a rather conservative tune, but I still wonder why the whp wasn't much higher...say around 545whp.

I later went to another reputable vette shop to see what could be done, but I was told that I would need a forged bottom end, in order to push the power to 600+ whp safely. Something just doesn't add up. Has anyone else here with the same setup ever had an issue with achieving 600+ whp on the stock bottom end?

If I can get 600whp on the stock bottom end...safely, then I'd rather not get the "forged", and spend that money on an LS9 clutch. I'm running a BAP, but fuel-wise, I'm sitting good.
Any thoughts??
 

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From what I've heard about C6 internals,I wouldn't go much past 500 rwhp on the OEM stuff if you want to be safe.600+,you need to do some addtional work brother!:coffeetime:

I'm looking into a s/c/ kit now for my 08 but no matter what it's capable of,stock internals will get no more then 500 rwhp with my setup.
 

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As you can see from my sig, I have an A&A kit with the V-3 T trim. I've been making plans to bump my rwhp up this Spring to around 600-630 whp. Currently, I'm sitting at around 510whp on the stock bottom end.

I have noticed that just about everyone who has the same setup that I have, are running 600+ whp. The guy who installed the kit is very good and he specializes in Vettes. He did tell me that he went with a rather conservative tune, but I still wonder why the whp wasn't much higher...say around 545whp.

I later went to another reputable vette shop to see what could be done, but I was told that I would need a forged bottom end, in order to push the power to 600+ whp safely. Something just doesn't add up. Has anyone else here with the same setup ever had an issue with achieving 600+ whp on the stock bottom end?

If I can get 600whp on the stock bottom end...safely, then I'd rather not get the "forged", and spend that money on an LS9 clutch. I'm running a BAP, but fuel-wise, I'm sitting good.
Any thoughts??
Many thoughts... Lets begin with the basics: how big of a blower pulley are you running? I am guessing the 3.8" one that typically comes with the kit stock. If you are making 510WHP with that, then your car is tuned poorly. Not conservatively, but poorly. Barring a dyno that is just plain wrong (also a possibility), the only way you'd make that little power is through a combination of running the engine pig rich and running very little timing. Neither is good for the engine; retarded timing will drive your exhaust gas temperatures through the roof, and running very rich will cause oil dilution and carbon deposits everywhere. There is a big difference between a conservative tune and a bad tune!
Between that and the fact that he thinks you need to go forged to make more than 510WHP, I can say with certainty that your "tuner" knows very little about modern LS engines. You picked the wrong guy, do you both a favor and take your car to a tuner who has experience with forced induction LS motors.
That is the best advice anyone can give you. Ultimately your car will always be as reliable and drive as well as the person who tuned it programmed it to be; always find the best tuner you can.

Now that we got that out of the way we'll address reliability. Stock engines break. Some people like to think their cars will last forever even when modified but a quick look at the back of any dealership will tell you otherwise; those work bays are there because even under the best of conditions parts can and do fail. You turn up the power, it won't last as long. There is no way around it and if you are not prepared to pay for things when they break you shouldn't modify your car in the first place. With that disclaimer out of the way... ECS has recently made 833RWHP from a bone stock LS3 with a blower cam, meth injection, and base supercharger kit (exact same blower as your T-Trim). Will it last? That depends on how you drive it. I'd blow it up in a weekend doing high speed full throttle pulls. The average Corvette owner would be too terrified to hold the gas to the floor on a car with nearly 1000 crank HP, and under those conditions the engine lasts quite a while since it rarely ever sees boost. If you're going to drive very hard and race your car, a max effort build like that is not such a good idea. If you want the bragging rights at car shows it is perfectly fine. 600WHP from bone stock engines with base supercharger kits is very common place nowadays, requires minimal work, and is generally considered "reliable". When I boosted mine I had a bone stock LS2 with headers and the A&A V2 Si-Trim (slightly smaller blower than yours) with the base 3.8" pulley. It made 597RWHP / 518ft-lbs torque on a DynoJet and I drove it like that for exactly 30,000 miles. I drove the crap out of it; I did top speed runs (hit 203 Miles an hour on a closed road event before my alternator overheated and shut off and I had to back off), drag raced, autocrossed, and basically beat on it every day for over a year. After 30K miles on boost I split a piston. All in all it was a pretty good run and most people would never drive that hard. I made the mistake of getting a forged motor after that. With forged internals, valvetrain, a blower cam, twin disk clutch, bigger blower, methanol injection, etc etc I made 700RWHP. The car is definitely faster now, but for what I spent I could have bought about 4 or 5 stock engines and just swapped them out ever 30K miles for the next 150,000 miles. The cost/benefit isn't there for a forged motor unless you need over 650RWHP for some reason (competitive drag racing or standing mile racing). Plus forged motors always have a tendendy to burn more oil. I don't think it is worth it on a street car, and I would trust a boosted LS3 that is tuned well, maintained properly, and fed a diet of strictly 93 Octane only to live at the 600 - 650RWHP level for a long time. Particularly if Methanol Injection is used.

Good luck finding a new tuner. Let us know where you are located and I can give you some suggestions.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
From what I've heard about C6 internals,I wouldn't go much past 500 rwhp on the OEM stuff if you want to be safe.600+,you need to do some addtional work brother!:coffeetime:

I'm looking into a s/c/ kit now for my 08 but no matter what it's capable of,stock internals will get no more then 500 rwhp with my setup.
The overwhelming majority of people with the the A&A V-3 T-trim are making over 600 on the stock bottom-end... many with upwards of 700whp and more! That being said, for now I'm just looking at 600-650whp for now. Check out:
http://www.aacorvette.com/blog/ and guys who've had work done by England Green.

Many thoughts... Lets begin with the basics: how big of a blower pulley are you running? I am guessing the 3.8" one that typically comes with the kit stock. If you are making 510WHP with that, then your car is tuned poorly. Not conservatively, but poorly. Barring a dyno that is just plain wrong (also a possibility), the only way you'd make that little power is through a combination of running the engine pig rich and running very little timing. Neither is good for the engine; retarded timing will drive your exhaust gas temperatures through the roof, and running very rich will cause oil dilution and carbon deposits everywhere. There is a big difference between a conservative tune and a bad tune!
Between that and the fact that he thinks you need to go forged to make more than 510WHP, I can say with certainty that your "tuner" knows very little about modern LS engines. You picked the wrong guy, do you both a favor and take your car to a tuner who has experience with forced induction LS motors.
That is the best advice anyone can give you. Ultimately your car will always be as reliable and drive as well as the person who tuned it programmed it to be; always find the best tuner you can.

Now that we got that out of the way we'll address reliability. Stock engines break. Some people like to think their cars will last forever even when modified but a quick look at the back of any dealership will tell you otherwise; those work bays are there because even under the best of conditions parts can and do fail. You turn up the power, it won't last as long. There is no way around it and if you are not prepared to pay for things when they break you shouldn't modify your car in the first place. With that disclaimer out of the way... ECS has recently made 833RWHP from a bone stock LS3 with a blower cam, meth injection, and base supercharger kit (exact same blower as your T-Trim). Will it last? That depends on how you drive it. I'd blow it up in a weekend doing high speed full throttle pulls. The average Corvette owner would be too terrified to hold the gas to the floor on a car with nearly 1000 crank HP, and under those conditions the engine lasts quite a while since it rarely ever sees boost. If you're going to drive very hard and race your car, a max effort build like that is not such a good idea. If you want the bragging rights at car shows it is perfectly fine. 600WHP from bone stock engines with base supercharger kits is very common place nowadays, requires minimal work, and is generally considered "reliable". When I boosted mine I had a bone stock LS2 with headers and the A&A V2 Si-Trim (slightly smaller blower than yours) with the base 3.8" pulley. It made 597RWHP / 518ft-lbs torque on a DynoJet and I drove it like that for exactly 30,000 miles. I drove the crap out of it; I did top speed runs (hit 203 Miles an hour on a closed road event before my alternator overheated and shut off and I had to back off), drag raced, autocrossed, and basically beat on it every day for over a year. After 30K miles on boost I split a piston. All in all it was a pretty good run and most people would never drive that hard. I made the mistake of getting a forged motor after that. With forged internals, valvetrain, a blower cam, twin disk clutch, bigger blower, methanol injection, etc etc I made 700RWHP. The car is definitely faster now, but for what I spent I could have bought about 4 or 5 stock engines and just swapped them out ever 30K miles for the next 150,000 miles. The cost/benefit isn't there for a forged motor unless you need over 650RWHP for some reason (competitive drag racing or standing mile racing). Plus forged motors always have a tendendy to burn more oil. I don't think it is worth it on a street car, and I would trust a boosted LS3 that is tuned well, maintained properly, and fed a diet of strictly 93 Octane only to live at the 600 - 650RWHP level for a long time. Particularly if Methanol Injection is used.

Good luck finding a new tuner. Let us know where you are located and I can give you some suggestions.
I am running the V-3 T-trim with the 3.8 pulley. 600 should be pretty easy to obtain. The shop who did the install didn't have a dyno, and did a street PC tune. I decided to took the car to a very reputable corvette performance shop that had a dyno in their shop. They did make some minor AF changes, but that was about it. The fact that so many others are running the same setup with far higher #'s, says to me that something isn't right.

The car is driven very little. I work abroad and only spend about 30 days a year in the states. Money's not an issue, but I can't see spending money where it's not needed. Since I don't spend a lot of time in the states, I want to keep it reliable...would hate to have problems when I'm home for such a short time. I think 600whp is very reliable...considering how little the car is driven. I brought the car in 08' with 5k miles...it currently has about 20k on it.

I'm in Minnesota, anyone know of any good tuner shops? The tuner I went to didn't really say that I needed the forged bottom end IOT reach 600whp, but it was suggested that forged bottom end was was needed to do it safely...which as I mentioned before, I think is b.s.
 

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I'm in Minnesota, anyone know of any good tuner shops?
I've seen Doug Rippie Motorsports pop up in a few places. He's known for custom vette suspension stuff but has tuned a few vettes in his day. Google DRM Motorsports for contact info.
 

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I'm in Minnesota, anyone know of any good tuner shops?
I don't. I'd try and bring the car to the east coast if I were you. Its a long drive but I've done it over a dozen times from Houghton, Upper Peninsula Michigan, which is even further, and then you could have ECS tune it for you.
I'm about 5 hours east of you and go to MN every couple of months; let me know via PM when you're back in town and I'd be happy to drive over with my HP tuners and take a look at your tune for free.

Also: The fact that the shop that tuned your car didn't have a dyno should be a good indication that they are not very serious about tuning.
 

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WOW.GOOD TO KNOW! :thumbsup3:
Disclaimer: Every single car on that list making over 600whp has either Methanol Injection, aftermarket heads, a blower cam, a smaller pulley, a built motor or a combination of those.

While the kit itself WILL support over 700WHP, it doesn't do it as-is: 600RWHP is the ballpark for what a T-Trim with the 3.8" pulley the OP has should be making. 600WHP with the 3.8" pulley is a pretty solid combo and should be very reliable given the OP's driving habits.
If he wants over 600WHP my recommendation would be a blower cam. It is also possible to hit 650 - 700 without one by pullying the blower down to a 3.4 or even a 3.25" dia pulley but the boost level attained will necessitate methanol injection.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I've seen Doug Rippie Motorsports pop up in a few places. He's known for custom vette suspension stuff but has tuned a few vettes in his day. Google DRM Motorsports for contact info.
That's where I went to get the dyno tune. They do have a very nice shop, and do some great work.

I don't. I'd try and bring the car to the east coast if I were you. Its a long drive but I've done it over a dozen times from Houghton, Upper Peninsula Michigan, which is even further, and then you could have ECS tune it for you.
I'm about 5 hours east of you and go to MN every couple of months; let me know via PM when you're back in town and I'd be happy to drive over with my HP tuners and take a look at your tune for free.

Also: The fact that the shop that tuned your car didn't have a dyno should be a good indication that they are not very serious about tuning.
DRM was supposed to do the work originally, but they had stopped returning my emails during the planning phase. They're super busy, so maybe things fell through the cracks.

The shop that did the install, normally does a street tune, then takes the car to a shop with a dyno...but the dyno tune never happened.

I've been talking with some local tuners, one in particular who said that I should be up to 600whp as well. He said that one of the problems that he's seen on several cars, is belt slip above 5200rpm's. He said that despite every trick that they tried, they still had problems with slipping.

I may go with an 8 rib setup, if there is indeed slipping and they can't correct it.

If I can't get anyone in MN to correct it, then I will take it to ECS, but that wouldn't be until the summer. If that happens, I will indeed let you know and follow you up there. Appreciate it! :thumbsup3:

Disclaimer: Every single car on that list making over 600whp has either Methanol Injection, aftermarket heads, a blower cam, a smaller pulley, a built motor or a combination of those.

While the kit itself WILL support over 700WHP, it doesn't do it as-is: 600RWHP is the ballpark for what a T-Trim with the 3.8" pulley the OP has should be making. 600WHP with the 3.8" pulley is a pretty solid combo and should be very reliable given the OP's driving habits.
If he wants over 600WHP my recommendation would be a blower cam. It is also possible to hit 650 - 700 without one by pullying the blower down to a 3.4 or even a 3.25" dia pulley but the boost level attained will necessitate methanol injection.
That's true... some details I forgot to mention.
 

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I've been talking with some local tuners, one in particular who said that I should be up to 600whp as well. He said that one of the problems that he's seen on several cars, is belt slip above 5200rpm's. He said that despite every trick that they tried, they still had problems with slipping.
That is ridiculous. The 3.8" pulley is not only HUGE, but also makes the supercharger drag so low that you'd literally need the belt lose to the point of jumping off before you could get serious belt slip. Was this local tuner a Honda tuner? ;)
I am running a 3.125" pulley on my blower, which requires a belt tension of 700lbs to drive, and I still get no belt slip whatsoever with a 6-Rib.
The only people having belt slip issues are guys driving their blowers extremely hard (big blowers, large boost numbers and tiny supercharger pulleys). You are far from that. An 8-rib on a base kit running low boost is a waste of money.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
That is ridiculous. The 3.8" pulley is not only HUGE, but also makes the supercharger drag so low that you'd literally need the belt lose to the point of jumping off before you could get serious belt slip. Was this local tuner a Honda tuner? ;)
I am running a 3.125" pulley on my blower, which requires a belt tension of 700lbs to drive, and I still get no belt slip whatsoever with a 6-Rib.
The only people having belt slip issues are guys driving their blowers extremely hard (big blowers, large boost numbers and tiny supercharger pulleys). You are far from that. An 8-rib on a base kit running low boost is a waste of money.
I don't think they deal with Honda's LOL! I still have a few more shops to talk to. Thanks for the info! :thumbsup3: I'll be sure to let them know.
 

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I don't think they deal with Honda's LOL! I still have a few more shops to talk to. Thanks for the info! :thumbsup3: I'll be sure to let them know.
Do yourself a favor and go directly to the source:
(805)278-4107 . That's A&A's direct line, ask for Andy or Steve. If you call after hours it will ring Andy's mobile. They make your kit, they've been making it for about 6 years now, they sold over 1000 kits last year, and they install in-house. As the saying goes, "Everyone's an expert" and if you keep talking to more shops you will keep getting more different answers, which is why you've heard opinions about belt slip on big pulleys, forged engines being needed for modest power gains, power numbers way out of touch with reality, etc... 5 bucks says most of the guys who are telling you this have little to no experience with modern Corvettes and think their experience with old cars applies here. You have questions about the supercharger kit on your car? I have one, I'm happy to give you feedback. But you can also ask the guys who make it, and that's an even better source ;)
I trust 4 shops when it comes to supercharger kits on Corvettes, and I trust them because that's all they do: A&A, ECS, Cartek and Texas Speed. There ARE others out there too, but I can't vouch for them...
Also, if you have some free time, it is always a good idea to educate yourself more on the subject, so when someone tells you something that doesn't make sense you can correct them... I've read a lot of books on the subject, but these two are by far the best ones:





About 20-30 dollars each from Amazon, shipped anywhere in the country, and while they don't deal specifically with Corvettes, they give you all the background behind how superchargers and forced induction works, along with the math to calculate things like belt tension, parasitic drag, intake air temperatures and the like...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Do yourself a favor and go directly to the source:
(805)278-4107 . That's A&A's direct line, ask for Andy or Steve. If you call after hours it will ring Andy's mobile. They make your kit, they've been making it for about 6 years now, they sold over 1000 kits last year, and they install in-house. As the saying goes, "Everyone's an expert" and if you keep talking to more shops you will keep getting more different answers, which is why you've heard opinions about belt slip on big pulleys, forged engines being needed for modest power gains, power numbers way out of touch with reality, etc... 5 bucks says most of the guys who are telling you this have little to no experience with modern Corvettes and think their experience with old cars applies here. You have questions about the supercharger kit on your car? I have one, I'm happy to give you feedback. But you can also ask the guys who make it, and that's an even better source ;)
I trust 4 shops when it comes to supercharger kits on Corvettes, and I trust them because that's all they do: A&A, ECS, Cartek and Texas Speed. There ARE others out there too, but I can't vouch for them...
Also, if you have some free time, it is always a good idea to educate yourself more on the subject, so when someone tells you something that doesn't make sense you can correct them... I've read a lot of books on the subject, but these two are by far the best ones:





About 20-30 dollars each from Amazon, shipped anywhere in the country, and while they don't deal specifically with Corvettes, they give you all the background behind how superchargers and forced induction works, along with the math to calculate things like belt tension, parasitic drag, intake air temperatures and the like...
Makes a whole lof of sense brother! I have talked with Andy before..but that was some time ago. I'll have to give him a ring again.

Good idea on the books too! :thumbsup3:

thanks!
 

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Just for reference, I had a V-2 Si-Trim A&A Supercharger kit installed in my 2005 A4 a couple weeks ago and the numbers ended up inline with yours. I ended up at 512RWHP. The only other modification is B&B Fusion exhaust and the gains there are neglible. I have no longtubes or anything else, and the dyno pull was done with the stock 2.73 rear end. The highest pull was 525RWHP and was a little lean so he backed it down a bit. All work was performed by Mike Norris, and I talked to Andy as well and the numbers were inline with his expectations.

I also had a 3.42 RPM stage 2 rear differential installed immediately after the dyno runs so if she was back on the dyno the numbers may be even a little lower compared to the 2.73 run.

Just wanted to chime in with a similar setup for your comparison. I think edging closer to 600 with longtubes, intake, and a more aggressive tune is definitely doable.
 

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Sorry, just saw that you already have longtubes on the vehicle after reading your signature so I would think your numbers are a little low as well. I wouldn't expect 600RWHP with that setup but would definitely expect a little higher. And if yours is an M6 it should definitely read again even a bit more HP than my A4.
 

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Just for reference, I had a V-2 Si-Trim A&A Supercharger kit installed in my 2005 A4 a couple weeks ago and the numbers ended up inline with yours. I ended up at 512RWHP. The only other modification is B&B Fusion exhaust and the gains there are neglible. I have no longtubes or anything else, and the dyno pull was done with the stock 2.73 rear end. The highest pull was 525RWHP and was a little lean so he backed it down a bit. All work was performed by Mike Norris, and I talked to Andy as well and the numbers were inline with his expectations.

I also had a 3.42 RPM stage 2 rear differential installed immediately after the dyno runs so if she was back on the dyno the numbers may be even a little lower compared to the 2.73 run.

Just wanted to chime in with a similar setup for your comparison. I think edging closer to 600 with longtubes, intake, and a more aggressive tune is definitely doable.
What octane fuel, and do you know how much ignition timing you're running?
 

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I run 93 octane. I'm not sure of the ignition timing. I also have dyno sheet printouts showing the A/F ratio in addition to the RWHP/RWTQ numbers I could scan in for you to look at when I get home. I have sheets of the 512 and 525 pulls.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Sorry, just saw that you already have longtubes on the vehicle after reading your signature so I would think your numbers are a little low as well. I wouldn't expect 600RWHP with that setup but would definitely expect a little higher. And if yours is an M6 it should definitely read again even a bit more HP than my A4.
I do have the M6. I've been in touch with ECS and will be taking the car to them this Spring. Too easy! Are you looking to bump up your power anytime soon?? I got used to 500 really quick.

My highest pull was 515. I had a long, hot drive to the shop... about an hour or so. We speculated that the whp would be a bit higher if we had waited for the car to cool down...but my #'s, would still be really low, in comparison to what they should be.
 

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I do have the M6. I've been in touch with ECS and will be taking the car to them this Spring. Too easy! Are you looking to bump up your power anytime soon?? I got used to 500 really quick.

My highest pull was 515. I had a long, hot drive to the shop... about an hour or so. We speculated that the whp would be a bit higher if we had waited for the car to cool down...but my #'s, would still be really low, in comparison to what they should be.
Yes, I want more HP already and have only had the car back two weeks and the weather has been too crappy here to really drive it. LOL. I had a 2hr drive to the shop as well, but the car sat there overnight before doing the dyno pulls. The baseline # for my car I believe was 360RWHP with the Fusions and a K&N CAI.

It's definitely a lot of fun and I'm having some Bridgestone RE-11's put on tomorrow so it should ride and grip a little better. Unfortunately, it's snowing here right now. :thumbsdown:
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I've been talking with Chris at ECS regarding Spring upgrades, and here's what we came up with:

RPS TD Clutch
Methanol kit (seperate tank)
Aeromotive in-tank pump (good for 1000 FI hp)
Smaller pulley
Re-tune

He said this should be good for about 700whp... and still on the stock bottom end. They have done the same setup on many c6's with no problems.

I was originally looking at doing a forged bottom end to obtain 700whp, but I figure why go that route when I can make my goal on the stock bottom. This setup also saved me over 10k in parts in labor as well.

I plan on adding a 2006+ Z06 to the stable next year, it just didn't make sense to spend another 10-12k to get another 100hp. I should be at 600whp as is. A 2006+ Z06 is a much better platform for a high hp build...but that's another chapter.

So, to num1maniac... I'm eating my words on the Methanol :doh:. I remember a post in which you were looking for Methanol suppliers for refills, and I replied that... to paraphrase "That's why I don't bother with Methanol" lol. So I'm taking the plunge.

Will post #'s as soon as possible.
 
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